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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from australia for science and reason

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic's own podcast

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episode number 685 for the 21st of

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november 2021 richard saunders coming to

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you from sydney australia with a gang a

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group a team

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of people who are hanging out after the

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first day of skepticon 2021 the new

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zealand and australian

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uh national uh skeptics national

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convention

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joining me in this little virtual

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have a drink and decompress we have

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susan gerbic hello susan hi everybody hi

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we have rob palmer hello there we have

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the voice you know so well it's michelle

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bickersma

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sorry we just don't know why we do that

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we have uh lyndon hello lyndon

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g'day everyone and we have lara hello

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lara

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hello how are you great we're all having

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cheers everybody where's my glass cheers

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we're all decompressing after day one of

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the convention before we get to chat

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about day one of the uh skepticon let me

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tell you what's coming up on this week's

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show we're going to kick off with an

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interview with the esp the european

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skeptics podcast who are celebrating 300

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episodes

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we're going to announce the australian

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skeptics awards the bent spoon the barry

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williams award for media the fred

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thornett coming up find out who won the

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bent spoon

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tim mendenham returns with part two of

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his book of tim about loch ness we have

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the australian sea optics news read by

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adrian hill and finally trove this week

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looks at acupuncture

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but anyway back to the convention i hope

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you all had an interesting and enjoyable

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day

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yeah it's great also enjoyable and

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around with people who have cool accents

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like australian and new zealand that you

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know

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heck yeah

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i mean my goodness she was so great

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who was that

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susie oh dr susie waltz absolutely what

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a star what a story you know i mean i

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didn't realize that she had been part of

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the conspiracy i didn't realize that um

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bill gates and all that you know she's

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got her 5g going and all that oh that

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was great i hadn't heard that story

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before i think we're all part of the

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conspiracy it was nice to see you in the

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audience michelle

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thank you i was excited to see susie

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wells too i did know she was um

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part of a conspiracy theory but um i

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really enjoyed actually seeing a lot of

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speakers

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from new zealand who

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you know i all i didn't know i did know

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susie but not others so i love that it's

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combined

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oh sorry richard wiseman what a coup

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yes yes susie really yeah two wonderful

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keynote speakers and uh behind the

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scenes lots of people pedaling very hard

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including lara benham of course pedaling

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very hard being one of the moderators

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and uh you know we we do thank you very

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much together with lyndon thank you lara

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the talk though i i really like i just

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can't wait to to see what it involved is

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the great australian psychic prediction

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project that's coming up tomorrow but

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he's really involved with that

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well let me say that that's coming up

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tomorrow from our point of view but

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to the audience uh that's today you know

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it's all very tricky with podcasts and

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time zones anyway let's have a little

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chat at the end of the show

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but for now it's time for all of us to

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run downstairs upstairs around the

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corner i'm gonna grab some waffles what

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are you going to grab michelle

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oh i'm going to grab a cup of tea to

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have with cheese and biscuits mmm

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and susan what do you think you might

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have

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ritz crackers with with mozzarella

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cheese

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how about you rob

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oh well we just today bought some new

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york style bagels so even so we're

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pretty close to new york and new jersey

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that's really hard to get so i'm

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sounds good and lara what would you like

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to uh what would you like to run

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downstairs to get

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so it's going to run upstairs

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yeah so it's yes well you never know

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what's going to pop up but anyway for

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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and joining me now virtually on the line

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as far away as you could possibly get on

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the planet it's

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the european skeptics podcast or it's

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the real exes

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see i can never do it

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on this i could never do it

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this is very familiar i think i used to

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be a professional but that's all gone

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now

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or

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the real esp experience hello and

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welcome to the skeptic's own esp

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hey sadesam

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hello

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stock

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i've heard that all before it's pontus

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it's annika and i'm dress printer

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wow

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and i'm so thrilled and delighted not

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only because i can see you all on the

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screen which is just fantastic it's like

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we're all meeting together uh which

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we've never actually done in person but

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i am a shame that's a shame but it will

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happen but i am uh just thrilled and

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delighted to realize that uh we're

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coming up for for you people for 300

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episodes

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300

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isn't that unbelievable

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it really

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i mean

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even for me to say it and i'm not

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involved in making your show but it's a

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big

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it's it's fantastic and so we'll we'll

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start with uh undress

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what what does this mean to you to reach

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a number is it just another show or do

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you feel quite

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happy and proud of 300 oh yeah i am

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i i i don't know it's

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we we always make up these um these

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reasons these arbitrary reasons to

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celebrate stuff right so uh

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it's just in a way it's just a number

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but but that shows that we've been doing

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this for six years

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every week and

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that

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unbelievable to me when i think back

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of the times that we started this and we

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we followed in the footsteps of of

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giants like yourself i it's it's

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no no no it's it's difficult to

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comprehend

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how much work

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is behind it

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yeah yeah you're absolutely right

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yeah and and listeners please uh i i

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don't know how this is going to sound

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listeners but

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what uh says is correct the work behind

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it i mean podcasts just don't fall out

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of the sky you don't just turn on your

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device and suddenly a podcast

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for the listeners you do but for us

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behind the scenes

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that represents

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uh many many many hours of work each

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week in in recording in producing and

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editing and so on and anika you're

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you're part of the the crew

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uh but you're a more recent arrival

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shall we say how long have you been with

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the show now um i would guess about 70

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episodes of the 300 so roughly

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i think i think i joined around 230 240

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something

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yeah somewhere around there so

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yeah it's been a very great and um good

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ride so far yeah i'm ready for another

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300.

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ah don't don't speak too soon no i know

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i hope i hope i hope you do make it

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actually i hope you do make it and and

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pontus over there in malmo sweden

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uh for you do you do you have i guess

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you don't all have to get up at crazy

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times because you're all relatively

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close to each other is that right

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we're in the same time zone all three

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same time sir yes currently that is

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yeah that's his problem i think it's we

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we

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just make him go

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get up very early in the morning it's

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good to know that that the there is

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someone among us who's

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who know where you're at who knows where

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you're at currently because you uh what

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time what time is it uh where you are is

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it 5 a.m or yeah it is 5 a.m it's

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it's 10 past 5 in the morning or 11 past

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five in the morning where i am at the

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that's right but but you you three must

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encounter the same situation i do from

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time to time when you have an

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international guest either you have to

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get up at some crazy hour or they have

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to get up at some crazy hour or

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something we might also encounter that

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uh around christmas and in january

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because i will go over to australia um

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for six weeks yeah well with with my

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husband and my baby well i as i said to

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you uh in some correspondence a little

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while ago uh if i'm here and and you

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know things are a little bit um unsure

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but if i'm here then we'll we'll go out

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and we can do some interviews we might

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even do a live report from the streets

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of sydney about something skeptical that

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would be really cool

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[Laughter]

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that would be cool and i keep promising

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pontus to visit him uh in malmo i

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haven't been here

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no we have a room ready for you here

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richard so you can come whenever you

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want to we've been expecting you for a

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while now but

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you seem to be busy elsewhere well i

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mean i i'm very pleased to hear that but

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where will the dog sleep if i'm sleeping

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well you have a standing invitation to

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hungary as well um i mean i i cannot

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currently provide you with a with a your

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own room but uh i'm more than happy to

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show you around and give you tours of my

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hometown our capital budapest wow so

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yeah that would be great and we have a

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guest room here too so

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you can do an esp tour around

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i really think i should maybe susan

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gerbic and i could do a big tour oh yeah

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yeah that would be great

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speaking of susan gerbic speaking of

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susan gerbic i know that she has been

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a guest on your show and and i think

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that she's some somewhat of a

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what shall i say

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an influence for you people is that

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right she's our uh skeptical fairy

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godmother if you want if you will she

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was the one who introduced anderson

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myself to each other and so she she she

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has um she takes credit and she she is

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uh she deserves credit for doing that i

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just had to say i think she deserves

279
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credit for a lot of things

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yes yeah yeah

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changing the world word by word yes

282
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indeed yeah 100 and millionth added to

283
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like with her gsrw crew it's it's

284
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amazing it truly is yeah yeah i wasn't

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there for the interview last a couple of

286
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:11,839
weeks ago but uh it was amazing by by

287
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the time that uh you guys interviewed

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her

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uh

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hundred million views that it was like a

291
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hundred hundred million one hundred

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thousand or something by the time that

293
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the interview actually happened

294
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yeah so it grows it's growing fast

295
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,680
it's ticking over all the time now folks

296
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if you don't listen to the european

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00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:38,720
skeptics podcast the real esp experience

298
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why don't you you should and uh

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pontus where can people go online to

300
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:47,040
check out uh your podcast we we have a

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website it's the esp.eu

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eu for europe of course and

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we have recently

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actually fixed it up a little bit so you

305
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:00,560
can search for different episodes you

306
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can search for different people who have

307
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:05,519
we have interviewed we've interviewed i

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believe

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00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:09,360
117 different people and some of them

310
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have been known more than once

311
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:14,160
so there's a lot of things to find there

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so the esp.eu that's where you can find

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00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:18,000
us

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excellent well look folks i'm thrilled i

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00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:22,880
really am 300 episodes for you is just

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fantastic

317
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and i really encourage you to keep going

318
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every now and then you might have the

319
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,440
same situation every now and then maybe

320
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every 50 episodes i think to myself i've

321
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:36,160
got to wind this up that's it i can't do

322
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:38,399
another 50 and suddenly suddenly i do

323
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:42,079
another 50 and another 100 and

324
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,279
i i think we don't know how to stop

325
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,279
we don't know how to do that so we'll

326
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just go on that's

327
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,279
that's probably my situation

328
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:53,440
so we still have momentum

329
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:56,639
good and all power to you so my friends

330
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:58,720
it's so great to see and speak with you

331
00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:01,440
all we don't do it enough pontus anika

332
00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:02,440
and andres

333
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:04,800
congratulations and uh thank you for

334
00:14:08,069 --> 00:14:06,560
being on the skeptic zones

335
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:08,079
thanks a lot thank you for inviting me

336
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:09,120
thank you

337
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:11,199
thanks and keep up the brilliant work

338
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:13,120
uh we still admire whatever you do oh

339
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,160
thank you

340
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,199
whatever i do yeah i don't know

341
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:20,160
whatever it is yeah whatever it is

342
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:22,320
no you do a lot of things you do a lot

343
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:23,440
of things

344
00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:25,279
apart from doing the podcast

345
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:26,959
you understand

346
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:28,800
somebody has to feed the cats that's

347
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:31,120
right

348
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:36,270
great

349
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:44,470
i don't know how you can

350
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:58,389
[Music]

351
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:59,199
hi

352
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:00,639
my name is tim mendem and i'm the

353
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,720
executive officer of australian skeptics

354
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,800
inc and the editor of our magazine the

355
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:06,480
skeptic

356
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:08,160
i'm here to announce two of our annual

357
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:11,199
awards for 2021 the fred thornett award

358
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:13,440
for the promotion of science and reason

359
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:15,120
the barry williams award for skeptical

360
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:16,320
journalism

361
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:17,920
both these awards come with a lovely

362
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:20,000
certificate and a cash prize of two

363
00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:21,680
thousand dollars

364
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:23,920
the fred thornett award the fred is

365
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,760
awarded to a member of the public who

366
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:27,600
has made a significant contribution to

367
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:29,279
educating or informing the public

368
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,399
regarding issues of science and reason

369
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:34,480
this year the threat goes to

370
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:36,880
professor christine mccartney executive

371
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:38,560
director of the national center for

372
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:41,600
immunization research surveillance

373
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,959
she and her crew have spent the last

374
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:44,320
year researching and publishing on

375
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,440
vaccines

376
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:47,440
and christine in particular has spent a

377
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:49,199
great deal of time communicating about

378
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:52,079
covert facts and issues to the public

379
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:54,160
and in consequence has been facing a lot

380
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,399
of very nasty messages

381
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:58,320
as often happens

382
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:01,199
but well done to christine

383
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,959
the barry williams award for skeptical

384
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:04,639
journalism or the wallaby as we like to

385
00:16:09,749 --> 00:16:07,360
call it is awarded for journalistic work

386
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:09,759
that critically analyzes or exposes

387
00:16:13,749 --> 00:16:12,160
issues related to pseudoscience or the

388
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:13,759
paranormal

389
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:16,000
it's not necessarily a pro-skeptic thing

390
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:18,000
but it has to be critical analysis and

391
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:19,680
proper journalism

392
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,399
this year the wallaby goes to melissa

393
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,079
davey of the guardian

394
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:26,639
who herself has faced legal online and

395
00:16:30,310 --> 00:16:28,000
personal threats

396
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,320
in her exposure of false ivermectin

397
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,480
claims

398
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:33,920
nonetheless she has persevered and

399
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:35,839
produced some brilliant work

400
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:39,199
congratulations to both our winners

401
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:40,079
hi

402
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,079
i'm jessica singer president of

403
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:44,079
australian skeptics inc

404
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:46,000
and i'm here to announce

405
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:47,759
the winner of this year's ben spoon

406
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:49,120
award

407
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,800
given to the most preposterous piece of

408
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:55,600
pseudoscientific and paranormal pitfall

409
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,560
in 2021

410
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,000
we had an interesting range of

411
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:01,920
nominations this year from a journalist

412
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,640
who is chasing ufos the australian

413
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:06,959
geographic magazine for also chasing

414
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:08,720
ufos

415
00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:11,520
a naturopath who makes various claims

416
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:14,319
about covert 19 vaccinations

417
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:17,520
and even abc tv for programs about

418
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:20,959
biodynamic agriculture

419
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:23,919
but there can be only one winner

420
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,079
and this year the committee has awarded

421
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:28,960
this least sought after prize to

422
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:30,840
politician craig

423
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:34,400
kelly for spreading or more accurately

424
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:35,600
shouting

425
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:38,799
misinformation about covert 19 and

426
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:44,789
hello this is richard saunders from the

427
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:46,480
skeptic zone podcast

428
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,640
and the australian skeptics

429
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:50,799
i'd like to pause to remember three

430
00:17:55,510 --> 00:17:53,760
skeptics we lost in 2021 all of whom

431
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:55,520
made valuable contributions to

432
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:58,880
skepticism here in australia

433
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:01,200
michael wallahan was one of the original

434
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:03,440
reporters on the skeptic's own podcast

435
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:05,600
and went on to serve on the new south

436
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:08,240
wales committee he also wrote articles

437
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,080
for the skeptic the journal from

438
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,000
australian skeptics

439
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,160
shelley stocken was also a reporter on

440
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:16,640
the skeptic's own podcast a soldier in

441
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:19,200
the fight against the anti-vaxxers

442
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:20,559
and a contributor to the skeptic

443
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:21,760
magazine

444
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:24,880
we will miss your poetry shelley

445
00:18:28,549 --> 00:18:26,960
martin hadley served on the new south

446
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:28,559
wales committee of australian skeptics

447
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,039
for over 20 years

448
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:33,120
reaching the role of president

449
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:35,039
and when he passed away only a few short

450
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:36,320
weeks ago

451
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:39,039
he was the treasurer

452
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:41,039
all three of these people left us far

453
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:43,919
too soon all three will be missed but

454
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:44,880
all three

455
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:47,600
left their mark on the skeptical world

456
00:19:05,750 --> 00:18:49,330
and we thank them

457
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:05,760
[Music]

458
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:07,120
and now

459
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:13,130
with tim mendom

460
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:20,960
[Music]

461
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:23,440
hi my name is tim mendem the editor of

462
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:25,280
the australian skeptics journal the

463
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:27,440
skeptic and executive officer of

464
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,360
australian skeptics inc

465
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:31,600
and today we're continuing an article

466
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:34,480
that we started last week on the nessie

467
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:35,520
mess

468
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:37,200
the loch ness monster

469
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:40,160
and this is from skeptic magazine june

470
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:41,760
2012

471
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:46,080
or volume 32 number two

472
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:48,240
and we spoke before about

473
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,440
the participants especially

474
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:53,600
colonel wilson the surgeon who

475
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:56,080
supposedly took the famous photo of loch

476
00:20:00,630 --> 00:19:59,280
ness monster in the 1930s now this is

477
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:00,640
this article that we published in the

478
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,440
skeptic magazine from june 2012 is

479
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:05,200
actually reprint of an article we

480
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:09,120
earlier published in 1994

481
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:11,440
and now let's get stuck into part two

482
00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:12,720
which is about

483
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,470
[Music]

484
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,520
on march 13 of 1994 the london sunday

485
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:25,200
telegraph published a story which

486
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,120
claimed that christian sperling

487
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:29,280
the last of several men involved in

488
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:31,520
hoaxing the surgeon's photograph had

489
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,080
made a confession to david martin a

490
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:36,320
former zoologist with the loch ness and

491
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:38,880
morar scientific project and fellow

492
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:41,200
researcher aleister boyd

493
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:42,960
according to the story and sperling's

494
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:45,200
confession the daily mail had hired

495
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:48,559
marmaduke weatherall a filmmaker big

496
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:51,760
game hunter and sperling's stepfather to

497
00:20:55,350 --> 00:20:53,440
find the monster

498
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:55,360
witheral are spurling to make him a

499
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:58,960
monster which he did using plastic wood

500
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:01,520
attached to a 35 centimetre toy tin

501
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,640
submarine

502
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:04,080
bought for a few shillings from

503
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,000
woolworths in the london suburb of

504
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,440
richmond

505
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:09,760
according to one report from the sydney

506
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:12,799
telegraph mirror in 1994 a detailed

507
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:15,280
study by david martin has found that

508
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:18,080
nessie was made in just eight days

509
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:20,159
the finished monster was 30 centimeters

510
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,440
high and about 45 centimeters long with

511
00:21:29,029 --> 00:21:26,720
a lead keel to give extra stability

512
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:29,039
mama duke weatherill's son ian took the

513
00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:31,679
photo on a quiet day on the lock

514
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:34,320
according to a reuters report

515
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,799
a friend recommended colonel wilson as a

516
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:39,039
front man no doubt because of his

517
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:41,039
impeccable scientific credentials and

518
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:43,760
commendable detachment admittedly the

519
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:47,919
reports published in newspapers in 1994

520
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,360
show some slight difference on the

521
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:51,440
number of people involved with one

522
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,919
report quoting five conspirators

523
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:56,640
weatherall his son his stepson colonel

524
00:22:01,510 --> 00:21:58,640
wilson and one other

525
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,520
and another vegas several men

526
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:03,280
the fifth conspirator could be morris

527
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:05,520
chambers an insurance agent who

528
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:07,120
apparently arranged for wilson to

529
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,640
present the photos to the daily mail

530
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,240
the sydney telegraph mirror says the

531
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:14,320
photo was sold to an unsuspecting

532
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:15,679
newspaper

533
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:17,919
whereas the reuters report implies the

534
00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:20,480
newspaper was at least indirectly

535
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,640
involved in the hoax

536
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,120
on this latter point according to

537
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:27,760
monster researcher nicholas witchell

538
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:30,799
in 1933 the daily mail had hired a

539
00:22:35,909 --> 00:22:32,799
famous big game hunter

540
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:35,919
mr w.a weatherall

541
00:22:39,669 --> 00:22:37,679
spelling is different a fellow of the

542
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:39,679
royal geographical society in royal

543
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,799
zoological society to track down nessie

544
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:44,559
after only four days weatherall's team

545
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:46,240
came across footprints on the south

546
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,919
shore of the loch

547
00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:49,760
plaster cars were made and sent off to

548
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:51,840
the british museum of natural history

549
00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:53,280
which earlier the next year reported

550
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:55,120
that they were unable to find any

551
00:22:59,750 --> 00:22:57,440
significant difference between these

552
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:59,760
impressions and those made by a

553
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:01,840
hippopotamus

554
00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:04,320
the footprints it turned out were made

555
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:06,880
using a loch ness residence hippo foot

556
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,480
umbrella stand

557
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:09,760
which probably explains why all the

558
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:13,120
footprints were of the same foot

559
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,880
on january 15

560
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:16,799
weather reported seeing something while

561
00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:18,159
cruising the lock

562
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:19,840
but he said he was convinced the lock

563
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:22,480
only contained a large grey seal

564
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:24,400
the following year he resigned his

565
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:26,080
fellowship of the royal geographical

566
00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:27,280
society

567
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:29,120
no more was heard of him until the

568
00:23:32,310 --> 00:23:30,559
recent report

569
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:32,320
it has been suggested that weatherall's

570
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:34,640
involvement in the surgeon's photograph

571
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:36,480
was an act of revenge

572
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:38,960
for the debunking of his hippo monster

573
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:40,159
prince

574
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:42,480
witchell makes no suspect or otherwise

575
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,159
connection between the daily mail

576
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,400
sponsoring of weatherall it's apparently

577
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:49,520
innocent publishing of his 1933 claims

578
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,520
and the same papers later publication of

579
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,279
the surgeons photograph

580
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,600
mitchell also along with almost everyone

581
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:57,520
else apparently failed to notice what

582
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:59,520
ronald bins author of the loch ness

583
00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:01,200
ministry solved

584
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:03,200
finds extremely significant

585
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:05,440
which is the date on which the photo was

586
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:06,559
taken

587
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:07,760
when was that

588
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:11,440
april of 1934 says tim dinsdale

589
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:15,039
early in one morning in april 34 at fw

590
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:17,760
holiday in the great arm of loch ness

591
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,320
early april agrees with chill

592
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:22,960
april 34 says costello in search of the

593
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:24,720
lake monsters

594
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:26,880
although clearly identified in ghouls

595
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:29,200
loch ness monster and others the date

596
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:31,279
was not mentioned again until 40 years

597
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,240
later in professor mackel's the monsters

598
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:36,720
of loch ness and the date

599
00:24:40,149 --> 00:24:38,080
april 1st

600
00:24:42,149 --> 00:24:40,159
1934

601
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:42,159
april fool's day joke or not apparently

602
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:44,320
the perpetrators of the hoax were

603
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:46,559
overwhelmed by the huge fuss their trick

604
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:49,360
aroused and were afraid to confess

605
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,960
a reaction that's often shared by many

606
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,400
another hoaxer

607
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:54,480
nonetheless their photo remained in

608
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,840
active circulation for another 60 years

609
00:25:02,149 --> 00:24:59,679
becoming the most famous photograph on

610
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,159
the subject and reprinted almost without

611
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,880
fail with every subsequent book or

612
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,400
report

613
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:08,080
the history of the surgeon's photo is a

614
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:11,120
classic cautionary tale for all involved

615
00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:12,480
in the search for proof of the

616
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:15,200
paranormal be it unknown animals ufos

617
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:17,360
psychic powers or whatever

618
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,120
and a particular warning for the use of

619
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:21,760
photographic evidence

620
00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:23,440
proponents of the surgeon's photo

621
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:25,520
stressed the supposed photographer's

622
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:27,440
impeccable scientific credentials and

623
00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:28,880
demeanor

624
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,039
their attitude amounts to nothing less

625
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:33,440
than ironic naive and probably

626
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:35,360
hypocritical snobbery

627
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:37,200
especially when one considers rituals

628
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,080
comments about the evasive ingenuity of

629
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:42,480
the scientific community

630
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:44,000
either they're detached or they're

631
00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:46,799
evasive but they can't be both

632
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:48,320
they also stressed that the photo had

633
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:50,480
not been tampered with indicating that

634
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,559
they are in dire need of a little

635
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,640
application of occam's razor but they

636
00:25:58,710 --> 00:25:56,559
seem to too rapidly overrule the

637
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:58,720
possibility that it could be a real

638
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:01,919
photo of a fake monster

639
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,760
dinsdale in particular was clearly prone

640
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:05,279
to wishful thinking

641
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:07,120
claiming to see a knob on the top of the

642
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,559
creature's head

643
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:10,559
such a detail is extremely indistinct in

644
00:26:15,669 --> 00:26:13,520
the photo if not totally non-existent

645
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,679
it seems that these marks the knob and

646
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:17,200
the extra set of ripples behind the

647
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:20,400
monster are either part of a subtle fake

648
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,360
or genuinely part of the monster he said

649
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:25,760
the answer is they are neither for it is

650
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,240
not a photo of a genuine monster and it

651
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:30,480
isn't even a very subtle fake

652
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:33,440
the subtle aspects are in his mind

653
00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:35,120
the ripples circling out from the

654
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:38,240
monster seem inaudibly big even for such

655
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,240
a large and bulky creature as nessie is

656
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,240
often described to be

657
00:26:46,149 --> 00:26:44,240
this in fact is the view of current

658
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:46,159
legitimate investigators of the lox

659
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:48,400
natural history who claimed after the

660
00:26:53,029 --> 00:26:50,960
hoaxes exposure that for the last 10

661
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:53,039
years no one had given credence to the

662
00:26:58,390 --> 00:26:56,480
photo for this very reason

663
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:58,400
the author of this article which is me

664
00:27:01,510 --> 00:26:59,440
by the way

665
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:01,520
made this same point at an illustrator

666
00:27:06,149 --> 00:27:03,919
talk on unknown animals given at sydney

667
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,159
university in the mid-1980s

668
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,480
but what seems obvious to some people is

669
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,559
obviously invisible to others

670
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:12,559
particularly those with a predisposition

671
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:14,080
to believe

672
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,320
and the current age of computer enhanced

673
00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:17,840
computer manipulated and more

674
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,320
importantly computer generated images

675
00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:22,559
photographic evidence becomes entirely

676
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:23,840
shaky

677
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:25,840
an original photograph can be scanned

678
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,159
into a computer enhanced to an almost

679
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:30,960
infinite degree and a new apparently

680
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:33,760
untouched negative

681
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:35,360
and even greater manipulation is now

682
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:37,360
possible with totally digital technology

683
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:39,039
you just need to look at the concept of

684
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:40,399
deep fakes

685
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:43,279
of video of people who don't exist

686
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:44,559
of course there are still eyewitness

687
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:46,480
reports to be dealt with but these by

688
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:48,880
their nature are intangible and prone to

689
00:27:53,269 --> 00:27:51,200
innocent and ingenuous enhancement of

690
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:53,279
their own as every friend of a fisherman

691
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:54,640
will tell you

692
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:57,360
in a way it is sad to lose an icon of

693
00:28:00,950 --> 00:27:59,840
the age the surgeon's photo truly was a

694
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:00,960
classic

695
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:02,799
not of the real loch ness monster as it

696
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:04,640
turns out but what we would like to

697
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,559
think exists there

698
00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:08,880
what it does represent quite clearly is

699
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:11,279
how our wishes can run away with us

700
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:13,679
leading us to see what is not there and

701
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:16,640
to characterize our wishes as reality

702
00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:19,120
in the future as much as in the past we

703
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:20,960
would be advised to apply some common

704
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,679
sense and commendable detachment

705
00:28:27,010 --> 00:28:25,600
before heading for the deep end of the

706
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:27,020
lock

707
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,440
[Music]

708
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:31,600
and that's the second part of the nessie

709
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,000
mess written by tim menden

710
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:36,960
which appears in the june 2012 issue of

711
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:40,320
the skeptic volume 32 number two

712
00:28:44,029 --> 00:28:41,840
and as we said you can download this

713
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:44,039
article from the skeptics website

714
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:46,720
skeptics.com dot are you in fact you can

715
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,360
download the whole issue for free

716
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,880
like you can with many other issues in

717
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,000
the magazine

718
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:54,320
but while you're there stop downloading

719
00:28:57,750 --> 00:28:56,240
for free and subscribe to the skeptic

720
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:57,760
magazine

721
00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,360
it'll give you the information you need

722
00:29:03,060 --> 00:29:01,520
on the loch ness monster and everything

723
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:03,070
else

724
00:29:09,690 --> 00:29:29,029
[Music]

725
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,710
hey everyone this is professor dave i

726
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:32,480
want to teach you about all kinds of

727
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:34,159
things regarding science i want to tell

728
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:36,080
you about physics i want to tell you

729
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:39,760
about chemistry biology astronomy math

730
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:42,320
and many many more things come check me

731
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:44,240
out on youtube the channel is called

732
00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:06,549
[Music]

733
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:07,660
so

734
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:10,399
[Music]

735
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:13,279
hello this is adrian hill from canada

736
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,440
land of waffles maple syrup and the

737
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:18,000
occasional shifty moose here to read the

738
00:30:24,149 --> 00:30:20,840
australian skeptics newsletter number

739
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:24,159
136 this newsletter in full is sent out

740
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:26,559
every other week complete with links in

741
00:30:34,050 --> 00:30:28,640
all the stories you can subscribe to

742
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:35,350
[Music]

743
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:37,279
hi all it says

744
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:39,840
just a few days to skepticon one of the

745
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:42,559
benefits of an online event is that you

746
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:44,880
can make a booking right up to the last

747
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:45,840
minute

748
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,080
rapidly so if you want to see the event

749
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:52,320
live then you should book soon

750
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:54,960
you can do so for the low price of 40

751
00:31:00,870 --> 00:30:58,240
australian dollars at the skepticon shop

752
00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:00,880
and that's about 36 canadian dollars for

753
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:03,200
those canadians listening

754
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,039
and in the meantime

755
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:07,279
if there is a mean time the judging

756
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:09,279
panels are pouring over the nominations

757
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:11,840
for the various annual awards the bent

758
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:14,720
spoon being particularly anticipated

759
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,320
these will be announced on sunday

760
00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:18,240
morning at the convention as will the

761
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:20,720
new zealand awards seeing a skepticon is

762
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,519
a joint venture this year

763
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,760
the speakers at the convention are drawn

764
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:28,240
from australia and new zealand as well

765
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:32,240
as the uk russia usa and sudan an

766
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:34,960
eclectic mix is guaranteed for all you

767
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:36,960
can see the full list on the speakers

768
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:38,140
and program pages

769
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:39,919
[Music]

770
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:41,679
read on

771
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:46,159
temendom okay tim we shall do just that

772
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:47,360
news

773
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:51,760
detox routines to undo the covet vaccine

774
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:53,919
medical experts are speaking out against

775
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:57,360
coven 19 vaccine so-called detoxes that

776
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:59,519
some inaccurately claim can remove the

777
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:01,679
effects of vaccination received under

778
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:04,399
mandates and other public health rulings

779
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:06,640
in one tick tock video that has received

780
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:08,000
hundreds of thousands of views

781
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:11,360
unfortunately kerry maday an osteopath

782
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:14,480
based in georgia usa claimed a bath

783
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:17,600
containing baking soda epsom salts and

784
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:20,480
the cleaning agent borax will quote

785
00:32:25,669 --> 00:32:23,840
detox the vax end quote from anyone who

786
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:25,679
has received a jab

787
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,919
we presume you're not supposed to drink

788
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:29,200
it

789
00:32:35,509 --> 00:32:32,399
yuri geller's so-called psychic powers

790
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:35,519
helped boris johnson gain power

791
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:37,760
not the puff piece this sounds like

792
00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:39,519
rather this is a takedown of another

793
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:42,080
entirely credulous article extolling the

794
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:44,320
wonders of geller's significant and

795
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,960
highly overrated so-called psychic

796
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,960
powers

797
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,880
the main reason not to believe in

798
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:52,159
astrology

799
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:54,399
what apart from the fact it doesn't work

800
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:56,399
this article looks at why we trust

801
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,640
generic descriptions of ourselves while

802
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,480
it's from a few months ago it's

803
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,640
obviously still relevant astrology

804
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,720
hasn't changed much over the years it

805
00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:06,720
handily points out astrology's

806
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:09,840
astronomical errors in all senses and

807
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:13,440
accurately describes the barnum effect

808
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:15,440
science and pseudoscience of food

809
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:18,240
allergy and intolerance testing

810
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,480
adverse reactions to food are common and

811
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,720
estimated to affect around 20 percent of

812
00:33:26,549 --> 00:33:24,720
people in western countries and while

813
00:33:30,310 --> 00:33:26,559
potentially life-threatening they're

814
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,320
increasingly being so-called diagnosed

815
00:33:34,370 --> 00:33:33,200
using unorthodox scientifically unsound

816
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:34,380
methods

817
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:35,919
[Music]

818
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:39,519
mexico's national homeopathic hospital

819
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:42,159
yeah i don't think i'll go there

820
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:44,960
an interesting story on a 130 year old

821
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:47,279
institution the only such hospital in

822
00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:49,440
latin america thank goodness and not

823
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,360
only the hospital but the national

824
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,679
school of medicine and homeopathy part

825
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:55,440
of the government-funded national

826
00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:57,200
polytechnic institute and the

827
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,440
directorate of traditional medicine

828
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:01,600
again government funded and developing

829
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:03,760
coveted prevention and care strategies

830
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,720
using herbalism acupuncture and

831
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,200
of course homeopathy

832
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:11,520
needless to say the author of this piece

833
00:34:14,629 --> 00:34:13,050
is not impressed

834
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,639
[Music]

835
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:16,560
events

836
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,320
while some skeptics groups are running

837
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:19,839
their regular skeptics in the pub

838
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:22,159
get-togethers online the same talks but

839
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,560
bring your own beer an increasing number

840
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:26,399
are returning to the live face-to-face

841
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:29,200
format check your local guides to see

842
00:34:34,069 --> 00:34:31,679
when and where such activities are on or

843
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:34,079
if they are on considering any coveted

844
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:35,359
restrictions

845
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:37,200
check with your local skeptics for more

846
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,629
skeptics in action if you have any ideas

847
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:44,399
for stories or want to contribute to

848
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,159
skeptics communications such as the

849
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:48,560
magazine or facebook page or just have

850
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,000
something you want to get off your chest

851
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,480
then you're welcome to get in touch

852
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,879
news leads should be sent to news tips

853
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:57,200
at skeptics.com.eu

854
00:35:03,190 --> 00:34:59,440
submissions for the magazine etc should

855
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:03,200
go to editor skeptics.com

856
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,280
and of course comments and suggestions

857
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:07,599
even those rude ones should also go to

858
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:08,680
editor

859
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,359
skeptics.com dot a u

860
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:13,599
items of interest

861
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:16,000
the psychic mary tarot deck walks on the

862
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:17,520
grass

863
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:20,480
a cannabis-oriented reimagining of the

864
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:23,200
famous ryder weight cards is not your

865
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:25,200
typical tarot set and not your typical

866
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:28,640
designs in fact they look rather dull

867
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:30,480
maybe they figure the user will add

868
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,910
oh and my favorite silliest story of the

869
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:39,119
week

870
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:42,240
psychics fall out over a feud and

871
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:43,680
lizards

872
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:45,359
inside the bitter feud between two

873
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:47,200
psychics and former friends after one

874
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:48,960
claimed the other was quote an

875
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,839
alien-like reptilian lizard end quote in

876
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,320
a bizarre online rant

877
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,720
the other says quote i didn't see this

878
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:58,400
coming

879
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:59,839
end quote

880
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:01,280
i guess he should have

881
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:03,920
alright that's all for now it's time for

882
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,000
me to run upstairs to make a coffee to

883
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:08,160
wash down the waffles and to enjoy the

884
00:36:13,349 --> 00:36:10,640
beautiful but cold calgary day and who

885
00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:13,359
knows maybe even to spot a moose this

886
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:16,270
has been adrian hill see you next time

887
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:34,230
hello this is maynard did you know that

888
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:35,839
you could listen to the skeptic zone on

889
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:39,280
youtube yes i know sounds crazy but it's

890
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:46,390
also you can hear 40 logical fallacies

891
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:48,400
with michelle bickersma and funny

892
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:49,839
sketches with richard saunders and a

893
00:37:04,940 --> 00:36:55,190
just click on the youtube links on the

894
00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:17,190
[Music]

895
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:19,270
now it's time once again to dive into

896
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:25,270
the online resource from the australian

897
00:37:30,069 --> 00:37:27,040
government and the national library of

898
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,079
australia full to the brim

899
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:32,960
and even then more of digital archives

900
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:35,359
newspapers gazettes periodicals magazine

901
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:36,960
diaries journals

902
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:39,680
broadsheets tabloids

903
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,760
menus napkins

904
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:44,000
back of envelope calculations who knows

905
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:45,280
what else

906
00:37:51,910 --> 00:37:49,760
said diaries anyway all searchable and

907
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:51,920
all at your fingertips

908
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:53,760
and we've had a great time over the last

909
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:54,880
year or so

910
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,480
looking at references in australian

911
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,960
history to all sorts of paranormal

912
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,480
bits and pieces

913
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:02,160
and today we're going to continue with a

914
00:38:05,730 --> 00:38:03,760
look at

915
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:05,740
acupuncture

916
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:10,720
[Music]

917
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:13,040
now as acupuncture been mentioned in the

918
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,560
digitized trove archive yes it has

919
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,560
but before we start i thought i would

920
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:20,560
take a quick side trip to skeptoid

921
00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:22,880
website because i know brian dunning

922
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:24,560
produced a

923
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:26,640
episode an episode of skeptoid about

924
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:29,280
acupuncture and this dates from

925
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:31,359
2014

926
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:34,000
and for your information this is episode

927
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:36,960
431 of skeptoid

928
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:38,880
and it says

929
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:41,760
briefly to remind you because i know

930
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:43,440
undoubtedly you listen to that fine

931
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:44,720
podcast

932
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:47,920
this chinese medical tradition stretches

933
00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:51,359
back over 3 000 years the wisdom of

934
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:53,599
ancients providing medically valid

935
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:55,520
results even today

936
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:57,760
well that's the tease isn't it and then

937
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:59,599
it says

938
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,880
or is it

939
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,960
let's cast a skeptical eye at one of the

940
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:04,880
most popular alternative medical

941
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:07,520
modalities in the modern world

942
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:09,680
and it goes on to say

943
00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:12,800
exactly how ancient is acupuncture

944
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,359
not nearly as ancient as you may think

945
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:16,800
the first clue is right there in the

946
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,040
hands of the acupuncturist

947
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,760
those slender flexible stainless steel

948
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:22,880
needles

949
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:24,960
the technology to make them didn't exist

950
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:28,320
until about 400 years ago

951
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:29,359
and

952
00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:31,599
brian dunning goes on here to talk more

953
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:34,240
about research into acupuncture and

954
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,040
there are several points to remember

955
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,200
one is that there's no plausibility

956
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,440
behind the basic concept that is putting

957
00:39:46,150 --> 00:39:43,839
little needles into your skin will

958
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:46,160
effect channel

959
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:47,280
somehow

960
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:48,240
energy

961
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:54,400
which as far as we can possibly

962
00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:56,800
determine was simply made up

963
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:59,040
as were the meridian points and the

964
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:02,240
channels of energy in the body which

965
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:04,160
there is no evidence that they actually

966
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,040
exist

967
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:07,280
so they were probably

968
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,839
made up concocted sometime in the past

969
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:13,520
that coupled with

970
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:15,599
poor results when

971
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:17,440
uh tested against

972
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:20,560
placebo and sham acupuncture that is

973
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:22,800
putting needles any old ware

974
00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:25,440
and reports are patients still feel a

975
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:27,040
benefit or

976
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,160
pretending to put needles into the skin

977
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,400
in another trial and again

978
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,119
patients report a benefit which does

979
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:37,119
seem to heavily indicate the placebo

980
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,640
effect

981
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:40,960
but we should dive now into the archives

982
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:42,800
at trove and see what

983
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:45,680
references what stories reports

984
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:47,599
have been published here in australia

985
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,839
about acupuncture

986
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:52,000
now let's start in the year 1973 on the

987
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:55,359
15th of february from the canberra times

988
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:57,040
acupuncture

989
00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:58,079
fails

990
00:41:01,829 --> 00:41:00,720
geneva sunday australian associated

991
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:01,839
press

992
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:05,280
a western anesthetist says after three

993
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:07,520
weeks of observing acupuncture in china

994
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:09,920
that he is convinced the practice of

995
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:12,319
killing pain by puncturing the body with

996
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:14,960
thin needles fails more often than it

997
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:16,160
succeeds

998
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:18,160
associated press report

999
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,160
professor marcel jim perel director of

1000
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:24,240
the institute for anesthesiology at

1001
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:27,040
geneva university said acupuncture

1002
00:41:31,349 --> 00:41:29,599
should not be practiced in the west as

1003
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,359
long as there was quote

1004
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:34,160
no detailed honest data supporting

1005
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:37,359
claims that it is a complete success end

1006
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:39,680
quote not off to a flying start and we

1007
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,319
move forward a year to the year 1974 on

1008
00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:44,800
the 29th of november again from the

1009
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:46,400
canberra times

1010
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:49,280
acupuncture criticized tel aviv

1011
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:51,359
thursday australian associated press

1012
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:52,640
reuter

1013
00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:54,720
acupuncture was

1014
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:57,839
catching on in the united states at an

1015
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,480
ominous and potentially harmful rate

1016
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:02,400
according to an american doctor who

1017
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:04,079
thinks it is sort of

1018
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:07,119
tribal medicine ineffective in the west

1019
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:09,920
dr william kroger executive director of

1020
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:12,800
the institute for comprehensive medicine

1021
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:15,119
in beverly hills california said in tel

1022
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:17,760
aviv there was no scientific rationale

1023
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:19,599
for acupuncture which

1024
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:23,040
quote is nothing more than psychotherapy

1025
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:24,560
end quote

1026
00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:27,839
and again in the year 1974

1027
00:42:30,390 --> 00:42:28,880
from

1028
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:30,400
and here's a good one

1029
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:32,800
the banana coast opinion

1030
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:34,400
coughs harbour

1031
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:36,160
and that is in the state of new south

1032
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:38,160
wales 14th of february

1033
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:40,319
1974

1034
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:42,560
future for acupuncture

1035
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,079
there was a definite future for

1036
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:46,240
acupuncture in country towns a sydney

1037
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:47,599
advocate of the

1038
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:50,160
5 000 year old chinese medicine said

1039
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:51,200
today

1040
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:53,040
and i'll just comment here right off the

1041
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:56,000
bat that that opening paragraph

1042
00:43:00,870 --> 00:42:58,560
says a lot

1043
00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:00,880
because it states that

1044
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:03,920
acupuncture is 5000 years old and i

1045
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:05,280
don't think there's any evidence for

1046
00:43:10,870 --> 00:43:06,079
that

1047
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,880
chinese medicine

1048
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:13,119
which again there's no good evidence for

1049
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:14,400
that

1050
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:18,800
medicine

1051
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:21,680
douglas whitland age 32 has extended his

1052
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,520
consultations on acupuncture to coffs

1053
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:25,680
harbour one day a week

1054
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:28,000
he has a diploma from the hong kong

1055
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,720
college of acupuncture and is also an

1056
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,319
osteopath

1057
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:34,880
mr whitlin and i'm pleased here to say

1058
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:36,560
just as an aside that they don't call

1059
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:38,079
him doctor

1060
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:41,040
mr whitlin a canadian said he thought

1061
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:42,800
there was a more

1062
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:45,200
ready acceptance of acupuncture in

1063
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:48,240
australia than in north america

1064
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:49,680
when you explain the logic behind

1065
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:51,920
acupuncture to an australian he is more

1066
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:55,119
likely to say he'll give it a go he said

1067
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,839
problems discussed by mr whitland

1068
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,000
during his first day in coffs harbour on

1069
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,640
monday included a liver complaint

1070
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:04,240
dramatic problems

1071
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:05,920
and a shoulder complaint

1072
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,040
he will be at the elite motel

1073
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:11,680
each monday for consultation he said

1074
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:13,760
acupuncture was not

1075
00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:16,160
a magic wand and people should not

1076
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,119
expect immediate cure in most cases

1077
00:44:24,470 --> 00:44:21,599
there will be an easing of symptoms and

1078
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:24,480
a steady improvement he said acupuncture

1079
00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:26,319
corrects imbalances in the energy

1080
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:28,960
flowing through the body by influencing

1081
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:31,599
the energy flow at points where the hair

1082
00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:34,079
thin needles are inserted the person may

1083
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,319
feel a slight sensation of heat or

1084
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:39,599
numbness and occasionally a slight brick

1085
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:41,920
however this is less unpleasant than

1086
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:44,240
having an injection mr whitland said

1087
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,560
some people he spoke to were openly

1088
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,400
skeptical

1089
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,720
but their skepticism did not affect the

1090
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:52,560
capacity to treat them

1091
00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:54,880
he came into contact with acupuncture in

1092
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:57,520
southeast asia several years ago and was

1093
00:45:00,870 --> 00:44:59,280
impressed with the eastern people's

1094
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:00,880
complete faith in it

1095
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:04,079
i suppose i was initially skeptical but

1096
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:06,079
it appeared then to be

1097
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:09,359
based soundly on a time-proven therapy

1098
00:45:14,550 --> 00:45:11,920
and i have found this to be the case he

1099
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:14,560
said i found i had to take time off from

1100
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:17,359
my studies of acupuncture to get in tune

1101
00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:19,359
with the completely different philosophy

1102
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:22,400
of life of which it is an integral part

1103
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:24,720
mr whitland's wife loris

1104
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:26,880
an australian he met overseas and

1105
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:28,560
followed back here

1106
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,200
is now studying acupuncture in sydney he

1107
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:33,680
said acupuncture could be applied to all

1108
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:34,960
illnesses

1109
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:37,119
except where the sufferer was beyond

1110
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,560
human help or where immediate surgery

1111
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:42,160
was necessary

1112
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,680
that's an interesting article is he

1113
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:45,440
implying then that acupuncture could be

1114
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:47,599
used for

1115
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:50,400
viruses and so on

1116
00:45:55,349 --> 00:45:51,760
one wonders

1117
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,359
cancer maybe i don't know 1974 that was

1118
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,599
a long time ago

1119
00:46:01,589 --> 00:45:59,599
but let's move on to the papua new

1120
00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:01,599
guinea post courier

1121
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:07,599
dated the 27th of july 1973

1122
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:10,240
tropical doctor asks

1123
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:12,240
what's the point

1124
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,400
visitors to china who are interested in

1125
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:16,640
medicine are likely to be offered the

1126
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:19,680
privilege of observing a major operation

1127
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:23,200
under acupuncture anesthesia the patient

1128
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:25,280
seemed to be quite alert although

1129
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:26,480
usually

1130
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,520
having received quote pre-medication and

1131
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:31,440
quote drugs like those used in western

1132
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,000
surgery lies quietly on the operating

1133
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,160
table

1134
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,240
and now i'll just stop there to say i

1135
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:40,480
think that's a big clue

1136
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:43,200
in that last paragraph

1137
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:46,000
we read on one or more fine needles are

1138
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:48,800
gently inserted into a distant part of

1139
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:51,839
the body and quietly stimulated by

1140
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:54,000
twisting or by

1141
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:55,440
electricity

1142
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:57,839
after some time the patient is regarded

1143
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,240
as ready for the operation and his

1144
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:02,640
abdomen or chest or skull

1145
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:05,760
is opened for the procedure the patient

1146
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:08,960
conversing quietly with his attendance

1147
00:47:14,630 --> 00:47:11,760
throughout or sipping tea

1148
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:14,640
the anesthesiologist using acupuncture

1149
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,800
can travel with just a few needles in

1150
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:17,920
his pocket

1151
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:20,480
expensive machines highly purified gases

1152
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:22,960
and dangerous drugs the essentials for

1153
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:26,400
our modern anesthesia are not required

1154
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:28,319
how suitable would acupuncture be for

1155
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:31,359
papua new guinea there are many lessons

1156
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:34,319
for papua new guinea in chinese medicine

1157
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:37,359
and it is inevitable that contact with

1158
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:38,400
china

1159
00:47:42,069 --> 00:47:40,079
will increase

1160
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:42,079
but perhaps we should sound a few

1161
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,160
warnings before planning that all our

1162
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:46,640
anesthetics be given by this

1163
00:47:52,069 --> 00:47:48,960
elementary economic method

1164
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:52,079
first even in china acupuncture does not

1165
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:53,200
always

1166
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,319
work

1167
00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:56,960
conventional anesthetics have often to

1168
00:48:02,549 --> 00:47:59,680
be used to assist acupuncture

1169
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:02,559
when patient feels pain some patients

1170
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:04,559
seem better candidates for acupuncture

1171
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:05,680
than others

1172
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,240
second the theory upon which acupuncture

1173
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:10,319
is based has yet

1174
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:13,359
no basis in western science

1175
00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:16,880
acupuncture seeks quote meridian points

1176
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,960
end quote where stimulation or

1177
00:48:23,750 --> 00:48:21,119
irritation will influence disease or

1178
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:23,760
pain in a distant part of the body

1179
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:26,800
our sciences of anatomy and physiology

1180
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:30,079
cannot locate or explain these points

1181
00:48:34,790 --> 00:48:32,640
this does not mean they do not exist but

1182
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:34,800
it justifies a proper scientific

1183
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:36,400
skepticism

1184
00:48:41,190 --> 00:48:38,400
third the success of acupuncture should

1185
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:41,200
be seen against the success of china

1186
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:43,760
we learn of the great enthusiasm in

1187
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:47,040
china for the national cause the loyalty

1188
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:49,359
and devotion to the leader philosopher

1189
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:50,559
mao zedong

1190
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,760
and great solidarity of purpose of the

1191
00:48:58,069 --> 00:48:55,280
chinese people

1192
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:58,079
we know that the enthusiasm with which

1193
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:00,880
any treatment is promoted

1194
00:49:07,109 --> 00:49:03,359
greatly affects the patient's response

1195
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:07,119
to it if we are not able to reproduce at

1196
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:09,119
least some of the elements of chinese

1197
00:49:16,230 --> 00:49:12,960
enthusiasm and ideology we might expect

1198
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:16,240
we would not be able to reproduce their

1199
00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:20,160
excellent results with acupuncture and

1200
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:22,720
accompanying this story is a

1201
00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:26,960
illustration of a chinese gentleman with

1202
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:29,359
meridian lines

1203
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:33,440
down his side and along his leg

1204
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:35,359
the caption says chinese acupuncture

1205
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,880
points on the body

1206
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:38,559
each acupuncture point on the body has

1207
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:42,160
its own importance with in the 2 000

1208
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:45,200
year old chinese science or art of

1209
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:46,640
acupuncture

1210
00:49:51,109 --> 00:49:48,800
and i'm just uh reminded of one of the

1211
00:49:54,309 --> 00:49:51,119
logical fallacies michelle biggesmar

1212
00:49:56,230 --> 00:49:54,319
mentioned in her segment last year

1213
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:56,240
the appeal to

1214
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:00,240
wisdom

1215
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,520
and finally still stuck in the 1970s

1216
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:05,440
again from the papua new guinea post

1217
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:07,599
courier and this is

1218
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:11,200
on the 7th of may 1976.

1219
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:14,480
how about acupuncture for cows

1220
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:16,720
the ancient chinese practice of

1221
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:18,640
acupuncture has become a topic of

1222
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:20,559
increasing interest in medical circles

1223
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:23,680
around the world in recent years

1224
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,079
so far most of the discussions are

1225
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,240
centered on its healing effects as a

1226
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:30,559
source of relief or even

1227
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:34,000
possibly cure for many human ailments

1228
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,160
now it is being applied in the animal

1229
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:38,720
kingdom in the republic of china and

1230
00:50:44,549 --> 00:50:41,680
shows promise in meeting a major problem

1231
00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:44,559
of the livestock industry

1232
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:46,319
three staff veterinarians of the

1233
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,319
national taiwan

1234
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:50,160
university are using acupuncture to

1235
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:51,599
treat cows

1236
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:53,280
which for one reason or another are

1237
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:56,640
sterile and do not bear calms the

1238
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:59,520
research program it is believed could

1239
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:01,599
open a new vista for acupuncture

1240
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:04,000
practice in animal husbandry

1241
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:08,079
the program was conducted by feng heng

1242
00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:10,640
of the national taiwan university

1243
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:12,480
veterinarian hospital

1244
00:51:18,309 --> 00:51:15,520
and to others nine cows including six

1245
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:18,319
with cystic ovaries and three which

1246
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:19,760
failed to come

1247
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,040
in heat

1248
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:23,839
the period when conception is almost

1249
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:27,119
certain were chosen for the experiment

1250
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,880
they had previously been treated

1251
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:31,359
unsuccessfully by other methods with the

1252
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:34,240
help of instruments the researchers

1253
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:36,400
decided on two acupuncture points near

1254
00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:38,880
the ovaries on both sides of the cow's

1255
00:51:42,069 --> 00:51:40,319
spinal columns

1256
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:42,079
an acupuncture point is where the

1257
00:51:46,870 --> 00:51:44,800
experts say needles deliver the maximum

1258
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:46,880
stimulus effects

1259
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:53,510
and i apologize if i've

1260
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:55,280
pronounced that incorrectly

1261
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:58,640
each cow was punctured one to four times

1262
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,240
at the points with

1263
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:02,960
electrified needles

1264
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:05,920
poor cows two cows were released from

1265
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,680
the experiment for non-medical reasons

1266
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:11,599
they probably ran away

1267
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,160
all those remaining are now pregnant two

1268
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:16,400
of the cows which had failed to come

1269
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:19,839
into heat for over one year showed signs

1270
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,520
of the approaching period within 19 days

1271
00:52:27,190 --> 00:52:25,359
after the first treatment

1272
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:27,200
the remaining five

1273
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:29,920
all suffering from ovarian cysts had

1274
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:32,240
received hormone injections two or three

1275
00:52:38,309 --> 00:52:35,680
times without favorable results

1276
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:38,319
the ovarian cysts of four of the cows

1277
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:40,160
disappeared following the first

1278
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:42,800
acupuncture treatments the first sign of

1279
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:45,680
the approaching fertile period

1280
00:52:49,990 --> 00:52:48,160
were found around the tenth day after

1281
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,000
the treatment because of the shortage of

1282
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:52,880
open grazing land says fang most of

1283
00:52:57,670 --> 00:52:55,040
taiwan's milk cows are raised on small

1284
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:57,680
farms and given hay and concentrated

1285
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:00,240
feed this has contributed to the

1286
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:02,319
comparatively high number of cows on the

1287
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:05,359
island suffering from ovarian cysts such

1288
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:08,400
cows have long been treated with hormone

1289
00:53:13,829 --> 00:53:11,119
injections but the cure rate has been no

1290
00:53:17,349 --> 00:53:13,839
higher than 70 percent and according to

1291
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:17,359
feng the hormone treatment also has the

1292
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:20,880
disadvantage of forming anti-hormones

1293
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:23,760
so that different kinds of hormones must

1294
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:26,480
be used in subsequent shots

1295
00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:29,119
the acupuncture experiments with cows so

1296
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:31,520
far indicate over

1297
00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:34,480
90 percent effectiveness

1298
00:53:38,950 --> 00:53:36,480
but the researchers are cautious about

1299
00:53:41,190 --> 00:53:38,960
making far out predictions

1300
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:41,200
they point out that the scale of the

1301
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:43,280
first experiment was small

1302
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,040
and that the program is not yet

1303
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,520
completed one thing appears to be

1304
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:49,760
certain acupuncture can be effective in

1305
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:52,000
restoring the heat cycle of cows and

1306
00:53:57,349 --> 00:53:54,480
perhaps other animals as well how does

1307
00:53:59,190 --> 00:53:57,359
acupuncture cure that is a frequently

1308
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:59,200
asked question but still without an

1309
00:54:02,470 --> 00:54:00,720
exact answer

1310
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:02,480
many theories to explain it have been

1311
00:54:06,790 --> 00:54:03,359
offered

1312
00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:06,800
none is scientifically verified

1313
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:09,440
the ancients said the needles regulate

1314
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:11,280
the flow of chi

1315
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:14,720
the invisible life force and correct any

1316
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:18,559
imbalance affecting the vital organs

1317
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:19,040
chia

1318
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:20,160
[Music]

1319
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:22,800
and associate professor of physics of

1320
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:24,880
the academia

1321
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:27,839
seneca believes that both static

1322
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:32,240
electricity and electric polarity work

1323
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,200
in acupuncture anesthesia pain relief

1324
00:54:38,309 --> 00:54:36,640
and cures

1325
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:38,319
feng heng

1326
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:40,480
favors the theory that acupuncture

1327
00:54:46,710 --> 00:54:44,000
stimulates inactive organs and corrects

1328
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:46,720
organic imbalances when an organ or part

1329
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:49,680
of an organ is inactive or functions

1330
00:54:55,270 --> 00:54:52,799
abnormally he says the body is sick

1331
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:55,280
acupuncture stimulates the nerves and

1332
00:55:01,589 --> 00:54:59,520
aids in sick organs to function normally

1333
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:01,599
and the picture accompanying this is

1334
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:04,000
very hard to see because

1335
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:06,000
it's a black and white reproduction of

1336
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:09,520
low quality but it appears to be fang

1337
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,119
ping and

1338
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:13,520
another vet treating a cow

1339
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:16,319
so there you go a little look into just

1340
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:19,520
some of the references to acupuncture

1341
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:21,599
in the journals and gazettes of

1342
00:55:27,850 --> 00:55:22,880
australia

1343
00:55:27,860 --> 00:55:31,589
[Music]

1344
00:55:34,470 --> 00:55:32,870
once again

1345
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:34,480
we thank those good people at the

1346
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,480
national library of australia who take

1347
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:37,920
the time and effort

1348
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:40,319
to digitize these thousands upon

1349
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:42,799
thousands upon thousands of pages

1350
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:48,549
dot trove.nla.gov.edu

1351
00:56:09,430 --> 00:55:52,160
you'll never know what you'll find

1352
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:10,870
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1353
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:13,359
zone i'm still here with the crew

1354
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:16,160
decompressing after day one of skepticon

1355
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:17,599
and uh

1356
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:19,119
from our point of view recording we're

1357
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,359
all going to go to bed very soon so we

1358
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:23,359
can all get up very early and prepare

1359
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:26,319
for day two of the convention including

1360
00:56:29,990 --> 00:56:28,400
uh which people have already heard in

1361
00:56:33,510 --> 00:56:30,000
the show of course the winning of the

1362
00:56:35,510 --> 00:56:33,520
bent spoon award and the other awards

1363
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:35,520
i'm excited for the big reveal i've

1364
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:38,880
heard your teasers on the radio shows in

1365
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,160
melbourne

1366
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:42,640
and i think elsewhere too and

1367
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:44,880
i am excited that you're actually going

1368
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:47,280
to reveal the findings of the psychic

1369
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:49,119
prediction yeah

1370
00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:50,480
yeah because a lot of you people have

1371
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:53,040
been involved over well over a year in

1372
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:55,520
in working on that project for which i

1373
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,559
am

1374
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:58,799
very grateful indeed and i'm also

1375
00:57:02,069 --> 00:57:00,240
grateful for those wonderful people out

1376
00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:02,079
there who sponsor the skeptic zone via

1377
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:03,839
patreon or paypal and you can do that at

1378
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:06,160
skepticzone.tv

1379
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:07,760
it's those wonderful people who do that

1380
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:10,559
means the rest of you can enjoy the show

1381
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:13,040
well my friends what a treat it is to

1382
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,760
hang out with you after day one

1383
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:18,000
and uh we're all looking forward to day

1384
00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:19,440
two but for now

1385
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:21,040
but for now this is richard saunders and

1386
00:57:25,530 --> 00:57:22,720
the whole crew here

1387
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:25,540
signing off and cheers

1388
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:39,030
you've been listening to the skeptic

1389
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:40,559
zone podcast

1390
00:57:45,109 --> 00:57:41,920
please visit our website at

1391
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:48,150
for show notes contacts and to access

1392
00:57:52,950 --> 00:57:50,720
the back catalog of episodes going back

1393
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,960
to 2008.

1394
00:57:57,589 --> 00:57:54,880
you can follow the skeptic's own podcast

1395
00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:57,599
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1396
00:58:02,069 --> 00:57:59,760
visit our facebook page or leave a

1397
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:02,079
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1398
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:04,160
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1399
00:58:10,710 --> 00:58:07,359
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1400
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,720
podcast is an independent production the

1401
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:12,319
views and opinions expressed on the

1402
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:14,640
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1403
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:17,200
of australian skeptics or any other

1404
00:58:38,309 --> 00:58:36,710
sorry these are the people who stay

1405
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:38,319
after the music to listen for the dice

1406
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:40,400
game yes we've got the dice game back

1407
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,720
it's a d8

1408
00:58:46,150 --> 00:58:44,000
d8

1409
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,160
ds

1410
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:48,720
well let me see

1411
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:53,190
you guys have messed with me in the past

1412
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:54,720
all right

1413
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:56,960
roll number one what do i hear what what

1414
00:59:03,829 --> 00:58:59,200
do i hear michelle what do you think

1415
00:59:05,589 --> 00:59:03,839
well isn't d8 like a date like g8 is

1416
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:05,599
great

1417
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:08,240
the um in text so i am actually going to

1418
00:59:12,150 --> 00:59:10,079
go with the eight eighths i have the

1419
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:12,160
opportunities you don't always get that

1420
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:14,000
susan's going to pick two

1421
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:16,960
uh rob what note five five percent

1422
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:19,440
everybody listening knows you're not

1423
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:20,480
rob

1424
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,789
i know

1425
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:28,640
four and i think laura you were saying

1426
00:59:33,270 --> 00:59:30,160
two before you were i'm gonna go with

1427
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,280
two all right here it comes

1428
00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:35,280
hmm

1429
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:41,109
everyone's disappointed that's terrible

1430
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:42,400
okay next roll are you going to stay

1431
00:59:45,829 --> 00:59:44,240
with the same numbers

1432
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:45,839
yeah but i want to be able to see it

1433
00:59:49,210 --> 00:59:47,040
because you know

1434
00:59:50,630 --> 00:59:49,220
trust me here it comes next roll

1435
00:59:51,310 --> 00:59:50,640
[Music]

1436
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:51,320
uh-huh

1437
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,630
eight michelle got it and no matter

1438
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:00,960
which way you hold it up that's right

1439
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:03,200
and the last one coming up

1440
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:11,990
eight eight

1441
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:14,559
oh two out of three that's the second

1442
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:16,480
time that's happened to you to michelle

1443
01:00:21,030 --> 01:00:18,720
i think you've got some special magical

1444
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:21,040
powers maybe from your friend

1445
01:00:26,549 --> 01:00:22,079
yeah

1446
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:26,559
thanks everyone come on you guys look

1447
01:00:29,190 --> 01:00:27,359
all

1448
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,200
of you people listening you know how

1449
01:00:32,230 --> 01:00:31,280
hard i'm trying to make sure that it

1450
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,240
sounds

1451
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:34,480
it just doesn't feel right you know i

1452
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:36,480
like once in a while or five will come

1453
01:00:39,990 --> 01:00:38,799
through just to tease me and just kind

1454
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,000
of be there

1455
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:42,400
i think today's the day it's gonna be